Our good friend The Classic Liberal commented after one of my previous posts ranting about libertarians deserting social cons on the fight with liberals over homosexual marriage (and every other social issue).
I thought his question, and my reply, deserved their own post, and hopefully everybody else is as interested in this as I am so that it will get a good discussion going. (Sorry for some profanity.)
Here is TheCL’s reply to my original post:
What I’d like to know is, why do you insist on the state being involved in marriage in the first place? Does the state need to regulate even the realm of God? Is God’s word only good if backed by the Almighty State?
The right has become as beholden to the state as the left. The conservative movement has turned into the Israelites who demanded a king. God punished them with one.
Our Founders wanted the state to stay out of the church for good reason. Today, you want the state in the church so it can define what is and is not marriage. Can the state do something for you God cannot? Demand your Overlords define marriage, and you’ll lose the battle forever.
The left turns to the state. If the right turns to the state too, it matters not their intentions, you’ll both get to the same place.
I am a believer in our Constitutional form of government as handed to us by the Founding Fathers. My basic premise is that they handed us a blue-print for the most wonderful form of government known to man. Not perfect, just vastly superior to other forms of government. So my basic premise is if it was good enough for the Founding Fathers, it is still good enough for me.
Libertarians, on the other hand, look at life through the premise that government should have the absolute minimal impact on personal lives, and only do the bare minimum. I agree with that philosophy to an extent so long as it does not contradict what the Founders did, or so long as it does not lead to absurd results.
The Founders certainly “legislated morality.” We might not agree with the morality that they espoused, but don’t give me this crap that it is “unconstitutional” or that we should not attempt to do so.
We legislate morality all the time: we legislate against polygamy, child porn, underage sex, animal abuse, etc. ad nauseam. The only difference between those issues and homosexuality or homosexual marriage is one of degree, not kind. We just decide to draw lines and make choices because most of society agrees with those choices.
The states have since the inception been “involved” in marriage. States have required licenses, have dictated who could marry, who could marry them, when they could marry, and have made it difficult to get a divorce. So don’t tell me that the state has not been “involved” in marriage since the beginning of this country. And don’t try selling me the canard that opposition to homosexual marriage by social cons is some new phenomenon. It’s been around hundreds of years. I stand squarely in the mainstream of American thought through out the ages. You, sir, are outside, in a little slip-stream eddy off to one obscure side, far from where the majority has been through out the ages. (I do not question your ethics or your integrity–I merely believe that you have been misguided by your sincere–but incorrect–basic premise.)
And liberals/progressives/perverts/hippies, etc. and various other anti-American types come to the same conclusions as good people like you do, but again, based upon vastly different premises than either yours or mine.
Those people, many of whom I despise, I’ll just lump together and call liberals. Liberals despise America, and they despise America’s morality. They (many perhaps unconsciously) believe that if they tear down her morality and the country will follow. Others just think that they know better than all those who have lived before them. (Liberals being know-it-all? Go figure!)
They have their own brand of morality, but most would in the past call it immorality. “If it feels good, do it!” “There is no God, so we can do what we want.” Their attitude is that they certainly do not want those sanctimonious social cons telling us what we can and can’t do with our lives.
Notice, however, the contradiction–those same people are the first–THE FIRST–to tell others what they can and can’t eat, smoke, drink, say or do when liberals are in power.
What they and you don’t realize is that the reason this country has done certain things for centuries is because that way works.
Notice, for instance, what happened to the country as a result of the “sexual revolution.” Sure, there were horror stories of people staying in bad marriages, being unhappy, blah blah blah. But by and large in the past people married, stayed married, had children and prospered.
With the sexual revolution, the throwing off of traditional marriages, etc. (thanks you fuc–er dirty, hippies) the family unit began to suffer. Children lost parents, mothers were forced to raise children without a husband, women and children became poorer and dependent on the state for welfare. Men had numerous children by numerous un-married women.
All this occurred without any social disapprobation. Ooooh, don’t judge them. We can not be judgmental. Let them live their own lives, blah blah blah! B.S. That ain’t the way we did it in the past.
Believe me, I’m old enough to remember vividly how much of a scandal it was when unmarried women became pregnant. Many left town due to the pressure. This type of behavior may seem mean to you, but it was an effective deterrent to what society knew was a bad result. The world may not have been a paradise but people stayed married and children had stable homes. Then laws against easy divorce and morals against divorce and sex out-of-wedlock became loosened or completely undone.
I believe that marriage and morals based upon our judaeo-christian heritage was the glue that held society together, allowed our country to prosper, and to become the greatest country evuh. Sure, the country is great due to many other reasons, too, but I maintain that it would not and cannot prosper without our foundation of a strong marriage and morals.
So really, in my humble opinion, you are fighting against history. (Heh heh, no pressure!) You are (perhaps because you have not thought about it this way) setting yourself up as smarter than the millions who lived before you, who delivered to you the greatest country in the world, based on the greatest system of government ever devised. And you want to fuck with it because you don’t want the state “involved.” I don’t think so, absent some pretty unbedamnedlievable great reasons. Just “I don’t want the government involved in marriage in the first place” does not cut it for me.
Hope this halps.
p.s. I maintain that the reason marriage “works” best for society is because it was ordained by God in the Bible. Our creator just happens to know what is best for us. Who would have thunk it?
You don’t have to believe that to still come to the same conclusions that I do. Come along and join my side because the “proof is in the pudding.” Marriage is best for families, for health, for children, for prosperity, and for society in general. Ann Coulter has an entire book devoted to showing the devastating effect that the break-down in marriages has had on society. Can’t remember the name but I heartily recommend it.
And yeah, perhaps this deviated from the points you made. I see this as an opening of a dialogue, not the end all and be all of this discussion…